posted 08/27/10 10:00 PM | updated 08/31/10 11:14 AM
Featured Post! | Views: 1867 | Comments : 56 | Weather News

Bassett runs Baldy: But it's OK.

[Editor Note: This archived article from 3  years ago originally had an error when you went to the page so if you had a problem before, it is now fixed. Thanks again to Charlie Webster for the great imagery!]

By Charlie Webster.

Forgive some of the drama in this blog, maybe I should re-write the whole thing, but I'll let it stand with some editing. There was a little heat of the moment hysteria going on.

August 28th, 2007

It can’t be happening, but it is happening. Did you ever think you would see these images? For years locals have whispered to each other, “boy, it sure seems like there is a lot of fuel lying around in the woods.” A very mature forest, the pine bark beetle, heavy fall of snow laden branches which occurred several times in the past decade, drought, beetles, heat, wind have combined to give us this: [Scroll way down to see all images]



[youtube]XxE_tfbZVps[/youtube]

Over 1600 firefighting personel under the leadership of Jeanne Pincha-Tulley and Joe Reyes struggle to contain the hydra known as the Castle Rock Fire with big efforts, strained resources and great challanges. Strong, but not invulnerable fire lines hold around much of the perimeter. However a huge run occured in Bassett Gulch, throwing this monster plume over Baldy. The ski runs and the timber beside them remain intact with the exception of small areas. No homes have burnt, and no human has died. In the last few days crews in Greenhorn and on the top of Baldy fought pitched battles, and countless smaller fights took place. An incredible variety of aircraft hover, circle and attack the fire with water and retardant in the afternoons when the daily “event” occurs. But the fire has it’s own plans.



An ember streaks over into the bowls from the inferno called Bassett Gulch, which Joe Reyes described at the public meeting Monday August, 27th. Red marks slopes which m ight have caused the huge plume this afternoon.



As Reyes spoke Monday night Bassett looked like this:



On Tuesday it looked like this:



With Bassett, Alturas, Cow Creek, Limekiln, Timber Gulch, Clear Creek, and Cold Springs all with potenital activity, what next?





Heaven, Big North, Larry’s Casino, are all names connected with the vast north facing slopes of Bald Mountain above the Board Ranch. There is more fuel in this area than in all other aspects of Baldy combined. Wind driven spotting could sweep across the backside we love. With more red flags on the horizon late in the week, the North Side is acutely vulnerable and a very dangerous prospect. Proposed back burns near Guyer Ridge on Wednesday, August 29th will need to be kept in tight control lest they reach heavy fuel loads higher on the mountain, and then spot into the Ski Area.

August 16th, 2007, the fire was reported at .5 Acres. The resources allocated to the initial attack on the Castle Rock Fire consisted of three smoke jumpers. Considering the conditions, and the location, 9 miles upwind of Bald Mountain, the response was unrealistic and warrants some review in light of the eventual cost of containment.

Next day, Friday, August 17th with Baldy right under the plume. Fire is 600 acres.


A five acre lightning caused surface fire has evolved to  a 600 acre crown fire running in dry heat with gusts to 35mph, 11 miles from Hwy 75. The interior temperature of a crown fire can exceed 1000 degrees celsius. As some hot-shots say: "the devil has begun to dance".



More Fire Service assets began to be deployed at this stage.  The USFS was aware of the fire and it’s growth.

Saturday, Aug 18th the pristine Rooks Creek was sending a message:



[youtube]0w2gLH07Ys0[/youtube]

Fire is now 3200 acres.

Sunday, August 19th, Castle Rock Fire, now 7000 acres:



[youtube]jDZErL_TGEw[/youtube]

Now here’s a hint we have a real issue. The fire looks like it will eat the town. USFS continues to ramp up and seems to get a handle on the North Branch, holding it at Fox Creek in the north, while back burning up to it from the Bigwood and Warm Springs. The only casualties were Adams Gulch, Griffins Butte, Fox Creek and Eve Gulch.



[youtube]ZgW67yXF-JE[/youtube]

The northern line Monday, August 20th. Fire is now 10,000 acres. Jeanne Pincha-Tulley, Joe Reyes and their Type One fire crew was on the scene.

 Meanwhile on the southern front things smoldered and spots grew in Warfield and Red Warrior.



Butch Otter arrives in a Blackhawk Helicopter in time to attend the public briefing on Wednesday, August 22nd, six days after the 3 smoke jumpers landed near Castle Rock. Butch brought more assets and attention, getting the fire declared number priority in the nation. The fire was not impressed. As the Govenor addressed the community flames roared up to the top of Red Warrior.



[youtube]je4ut9_YFPo[/youtube]

Behind that smoke is real trouble: fire is cresting Red Warrior across the pass into fuel laden Lodgepole Creek, over the main ridge line to Bald Mountain.



[youtube]qAegXeq32CA[/youtube]

Thursday and Friday seemed almost quiet, but the fire held a hot black grip on Lodgepole and Mahoney Creeks, and it prepared to move east.

Red Flags went up Saturday afternoon and the fire surged to Greenhorn, spotting to Limekiln, which can be skied directly from the top of Broadway.



Fire is now around 30,000 arcres.



The mid-valley was evacuated and a battle to keep the fire out of East fork anticipated. The fire spotted to Timber Gulch, then Clear Creek and Cold Springs. St Luke’s hospital is at the mouth of Cold Springs Canyon. The Bowls are at the top. Meanwhile spots from Red Warrior had established in Alturas and then Bassett Gulch, even as Operations Manager Joe Reyes acknowledged the situation to the public.



By Tuesday, August 28th, The Castle Rock Fire now has smoldering bridgeheads three quarters of the way around Bald Mountain. A large run in Basset Gulch sent the fear of fire straight into the heart of Ketchum.







Tuesday night, August 28th, all of Warm Springs is under mandatory evacuation. Fire is 45,000 acres give or take a creek. High winds are predicted late in the week. For the ski mountain the situation is critical. Pray for snow, thank the nearest firefighter, hold on to your hat and hope Jeanne and Joe have what they need.

Update 8/29/07.

From the inciweb Castle Rock Fire website:

"5pm update - Fire crews are putting out hot spots and patrolling the Fox Creek area. Some smoke is visible from the Wood River Valley, which remains interior of the fire perimeter. Near Bald Mountain, fire crews are burning out as needed but mostly managing the active fire. As the fire moves along the slope to the west, fire fighters are allowing the fire to remove fuels and will put the fire out as they continue west. Helicopters will aerially ignite within the burn out area, along Warm Springs, to clean up fingers and straighten the fire line this afternoon. Fire fighters in Greenhorn Gulch are making good progress constructing line toward the east to tie in with a hand-line near Timber Gulch. Smoke has been visible in the Timber Gulch and Cold Springs areas throughout the day, which is interior of the fire perimeter. Hand line on the western perimeter of the fire has been completed and fire fighters are putting out hot spots 500 feet interior of the hand line as they work north and south."













[youtube]UpjV7yIjiko[/youtube]



The friday wind event has been cancelled. Best to all.

Complete Slides at

http://picasaweb.google.com/csvp07/CastleRockFire817To829

August 30th, 2007

By night and daylight back burning on the backside of Warm Springs above Board Ranch, an incredible feat, and containing spots within skier boundries, as well as containing large spotfires in Clear Creek, Cold Springs and Limekiln, the USFS Type One Team lead by Jeanne Pincha-Tulley and Joe Reyes have saved the Bald Mountain Ski Area. See Gary Stivers excellent piece:

http://www.sunvalleyonline.com/news/article.asp?ID_Article=3963

Be sure to watch the coverage of the thursday public meeting.

http://www.sunvalleyonline.com/news/article.asp?ID_Article=3962 

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Once again, great pics Charlie! It's great to get the running history in the form of pictures. Despite the drama yesterday, the crew chief described yesterday as a good day. I posted video from last night's briefing that includes his break down (it's like a John Madden chalk talk for those football fans out there) as well as commentary from the other key players (meteorologist, Jeanne Pincha-Tulley, fire behaviorist, etc.).
Comment by Dave Chase
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Hello Charlie, Thank you for your information and photos. I've been able to follow the fire and through this, and Blaine Counties', very informative websites. We have experienced numerous fires in my neighborhood, Malibu, Ca., so my encouragement goes out to all the firefighters giving more than they ever new they could give,to all the support teams, and cooperative residents.
Comment by Kathy Brock
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
So, are our military engagements overseas compromising our country's infrastructure as well as the timely and effective response to emergencies threatening our communities and citizens?
Comment by Ellen Mandeville
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
There's new video on the update that I linked to above by Mark Oliver. It captures yesterday from the Warm Springs side. Here's the 8am update from the Forest Service: The Castle Rock Fire saw active fire behavior yesterday. Behind Bald Mountain, a large column of smoke was visible from Ketchum, Hailey, and all points in the Wood River Valley. Structure protection for all Sun Valley Ski Company improvements and communications sites were in place. Fire fighters were strategically positioned prior to the fire making a run toward the Bald Mountain ski area. Heavy helicopters, single engine and heavy air tankers were preparing the line ahead of the fire and responded to spot fires. Fire crews worked through the night and carried fire down the ridge near Guyer Hot Springs 800 to 1000 feet within the tree line along the International ski run. Fire crews set up a series of hoses along side the burn out area and hooked up to the Sun Valley Company’s snow making hydrants. Crews continued to patrol, build and improve the line along the perimeter of the fire. Air support, structure protection, and line building will proceed today and burnout operations will be conducted as fuel and weather conditions permit. Fire fighters will continue structure protection of the ski resort facilities as well as begin burn out operations west of Guyer Hot Springs. Fire will be carried from the top of the ridge and firefighters will proceed cautiously and slow. Structure protection and suppression crews will patrol along Warm Springs Road today. Crews and engines will patrol, mop up and improve... read more
Comment by Dave Chase
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
This is a really great photo montage, Charlie. Really appreciate your images and especially the time you must be taking to get to all of those vantage points. It's quite frightening how quickly fires can move. Yesterday, I talked to a fireman from Santa Barbara, where I lived in the late 80s/early 90s. He and I talked about the Painted Cave fire of summer, 1990. Driven by wind, that fire burned 600 houses in 4 hours. The ocean was the line that eventually stopped it. We've seen what's happening here with the Red Flag days. I don't think I'll sleep well until there's a good foot of snow on the ground. --Michael Wise, Ketchum
Comment by svmike
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Thanks to everyone for their great work in fighting the fires and reporting the situation. As a part-timer with two properties in town I have been watching this with great interest and concern, personally, but also for all my friends who have made the Wood River Valley their lifelong home. To all..hang in there, and I look forward to seeing all of you soon. JP Furber, Alamo, CA and Ketchum
Comment by JP Furber
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Ellen Yes. Trace the money trail folks. A good day for who, the fellas stuffing millions in their pockets due to fire fighting profits. I still like the new modern helicopter logging operations Ive seen thru the 80s-90s, harvesting selected timber, along with brush and deadfall clean up. and those beetle killed trees, come on, lets harvest them. forestry management must be re-thought, todays methods are an obvious failure. Charlie when your living area was closed and forced evac occurred I applaud you for staying and exercising your right to choose, which is the basis of a free society. Bravo. After all we dont need big brother to tuck us in at night do we. If a man wants to be on his property then he should be on his own property. If I want to burn up in a forest fire thats my choice not some body elses choice. Where are all those C-130s the Forest service owns. Oh I forgot there delivering cocain some where under the EVERGREEN insignia. just another CIA front company. oops.
Comment by Greg Farber
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
I live in the mountains east of San Diego California. In 2003 the Cedar fire killed people and destroyed thousands of homes. My family lived in an evacuation shelter for a week not knowing the state of our mountain community. Your forest service and emergency responders are doing a fantastic job communicating with all of you! To have such a fire with no loss of life and structures is amazing. My son lives in Warm Springs, my sister in Hailey, and I review the web site often, Such an informative tool. Keep up the good work all of you. kerry
Comment by kerry mcneill
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Here's a link I found at another website that is a helpful tool for those who want to be prepared before, during, and after a wildfire. I think it mentions that evacuation orders should be followed for homeowners' and pets' safety, as well as the firefighters. Hope it works: Living With Fire: Before, During, and After: http://livingwithfire.info
Comment by Christy
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Having grown up in Sun Valley long before most arrived and pro logging and pro grazing now people might rethink the benifits of allowing cattle and sheep to graze as well as selective cutting for better forests. The Boise Front once allowed sheep grazing and then all the "new" residence pushed to stop grazing. The Boise Front now sits idle as did the Warm Springs Drainage till disaster hits. The so called conservationist should look at the Loggers and Ranchers who were in their own right conservationist long before the word was invented, groups as Sierra Club, Nature Conservaty etc stood on their soap boxes that they know best for our resources . These pioneer men and women were true stewards of the land well understanding that timber was a renewable resource (no different than corn or) that streams provided much needed water for Cattle needing to be maintained to support wild life and cattale and so on. It is time that the do gooders or huggers stop, listen, and observe what many new long before they set foot in this Great State. I can remember how tourists would complain about the annual sheep drives out of the mountains and how late they may be for their tee time or what have you. Today your community has turned that annual chore into a commercial venture. I am sure many don't even know were the UP turn around was or that their was an airstrip in Ketchum and Gimlet or that the gun club sat off the now Fairway Rd. For all the conservationist I am sure you have looked ahead at what's to come after the fire is out. You are aware that the lack of proper steward ship has... read more
Comment by Lazy T Shamrock Ranch
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
"The seeming ignorance of terrain, downwind assets and potential for disaster really defies belief at the start of this fire. August 16th, 2007, the fire was reported at .5 Acres. Next day, Friday, August 17th with Baldy right under the plume. Fire is 600 acres." First, blaming someone is foolish. Blame the lightening, blame the wind, blame the response, blame decades of no-burn policy, blame bad luck, blame whatever. It's not useful. We are all under a bit of stress.
Comment by Jim Chubb
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Greg, You chase the money. "Trace the money trail folks. A good day for who, the fellas stuffing millions in their pockets due to fire fighting profits." Like who? Fire fighting profits? What a bizarre statement.
Comment by Jim Chubb
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Charlie, awsome pix.
Comment by Jim Chubb
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dear Sun Valley Online, Great photos. Unfortunately, the opinions expressed in this post are just that - opinions. They greatly devalue your coverage of the CRF thus far. If you want to be valued as a credible source for news and information, you should either mark this as an op-ed piece or control posting privileges more tightly. Until we have the facts, claims of "ignorance" should be entirely discounted. Chips
Comment by Chips O'Toole
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
I apologise to those uncomfortable with my harsh observations about the initial attack on this fire. We do need to learn more. Nevertheless I stand by them. Thanks to David Chase and Gary Stivers for getting the briefings up fast when it really counts. I hope someone gets the name of every last firefighter. You can only imagine the countless untold brave acts and dramas taken place in the steep Canyons around Baldy and Fox Peak. We need to get a Castle Rock Website up with a forum where these men and women can share their stories when the battle is over. This group is our "300".
Comment by Charlie Webster
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Blame is very useful, I say tell it like it is and be as candid and opinionated as possible of what you are observing with your own two eyes! With hindsight we can hopefully learn from our mistakes which Charlie so eloquently pointed out: “The seeming ignorance of terrain, downwind assets and potential for disaster really defies belief at the start of this fire. August 16th, 2007, the fire was reported at .5 Acres. Next day, Friday, August 17th with Baldy right under the plume. Fire is 600 acres.” In the future, when it is extremely dry, the hottest element known to man strikes a tree, the wind is blowing towards 'downwind assets', lets not fly three smoke jumpers with some hand tools into a known volatile area, instead, fly three smoke jumpers into the dragons lair accompanied with an arsenal of TANKERS!!!! The facts are right in our lungs and eyes, I don't need someone else to give me 'credible information' when I can see for myself. Charlie has given the most candid view I've seen! Keep up the opinions and 1,000,000 word pictures Charlie! I salute the firefighters, this group is our "300"!
Comment by machalooney
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Great fire summary of the fire to date. As for the comment above, "Where are all those C-130s the Forest service owns. Oh I forgot there delivering cocain some where under the EVERGREEN insignia." Actually the C-130 firefighting fleet was grounded by the Forest Service after an accident a few years back. What is more disturbing is the Forest Service has tabled the ready to go 747 Supertanker that has the power to stop fires dead. The Forest Service also refuses to use the services of the DC-10 Supertanker AKA Tanker 10 that the California Department of Forestry finally decided this year to place under contract. Ask yourself why the USFS refuses to use firefighting supertankers. Someone else above said follow the money and this is very true. Supertankers kill budgets, think of all the overtime lost if a supertanker snuffed this one at 30 acres.
Comment by Mike
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dear Self-Ordained Wildfire Experts, You guys have no idea what you're talking about. You lack a basic understanding of fighting wildfires and, in some cases, are chasing conspiracies that don't exist. 1. What the real experts know is that you can't put a fire out from the air so calling in all the tankers in the world, including the "Supertanker" (ooooohh!!!), would not have stopped this fire. 2. Tanker 910 (it's not called Tanker 10) is under an exclusive with the State of California. It is also remarkably ill-suited for initial attacks and contoured geographies. And I shouldn't even have to mention that this giant almost went down fighting a fire in California at the end of June. 3. The USFS doesn't apply individual resources to individual fires. It applies collective resources to a collective group of fires all over the West. It makes for sub-optimal, utilitarian decision-making, but it's the reality that we live in today. 4. Our perspective on both manmade and natural disasters always changes after the fact. Highly distributed information sources, rapidly changing events, rumors, restricted access... (also known as chaos) seriously hamper our ability to see the truth while the disaster is still unfolding. Let's do a post-op on this thing - not a midway/between op. That's a disservice to everyone involved in this effort. Chips
Comment by Chips O'Toole
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Chips, You seem to imply that questioning the initial attack on this fire "hurts our troops" who fight it now. I am doing a "disservice" by raising the question. If I wasn't so interesting in learning from you I would be offended. If fact I think it's critical to raise questions now while the event has attention. I'm sure you are right about the supertanker. It is obviously a big fragile thing. It's a miracle it stayed up after brushing the trees recently. These aircraft are not fragile: http://www.waterbomber.com/ video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db7QPk7GFJM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsomqrBie7M the IL-76 is a VERY tough aircraft, in daily use in extreme enviroments across the globe. It can also land and take off from rough strips. But a high capacity rotor attack might have been the most effective at the beginning combined with larger forces on the ground. It seems the S-64 Helicopters we are seeing among others are the best available today http://www.ericksonaircrane.com/firefighting.asp and I have personally witnessed them flying in heavy wind and smoke. A few days ago Jeanne commented on having "timed-out" several aircraft. Chips, what exactly does this mean? Are engines timed out? or the pilots? How long before the aircraft timed out on the Castle Rock fire come back into service?
Comment by Charlie Webster
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Chips, I'm sorry I'm a bit late to respond to one of your comments...
Dear Sun Valley Online, Great photos. Unfortunately, the opinions expressed in this post are just that - opinions. They greatly devalue your coverage of the CRF thus far. If you want to be valued as a credible source for news and information, you should either mark this as an op-ed piece or control posting privileges more tightly. Until we have the facts, claims of “ignorance” should be entirely discounted.
While most generally understand that blogs are opinion-oriented (and that individual bloggers earn, but aren't automatically granted, credibility), we have done a few different things to delineate blogs from traditional journalism. We agree that it is important to be able to realize what you are reading and the assumed level of veracity. We have done the following to delineate blogs vs. regular reporting: 1. The design of the blog pages is fundamentally different giving people a visual clue they are in a different place. 2. Any blog linked to off of the frontpage is entitled "BLOG: ...." 3. When we put blogs in the newsletter, we also have the "BLOG:..." nomenclature. In addition, as owner of SunValleyOnline, I write under my name when I blog. I don't write under a disembodied institutional voice (e.g., "Our View"). My hope is that this approach and what we do to delineate blogs makes things as transparent as possible. Having said that, the above approaches came from people like you so I'm all ears for new/different ways to make things clear. Personally speaking, I'm thrilled that many people... read more
Comment by Dave Chase
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
When Lowman was burning down due to the Banner ridge fire I watched the high capacity rotor planes going thru the same type of geographics we have here, had they not been called to late on that fire as well then I believe we get a different out come. Fire has become big business, I think personally the fires get milked for all they are worth. Heres why, when the Banner ridge fire started a logging crew was on that ridge, they headed over to the fire and attacked it and nearly had it out, when the forest service personal arrived they ordered this crew to get off the fire emmediatly, there were threats of loss of timber contracts and even arrests. The men left. The fire was less than 6 acres, that fire blew up and burned 60 to 100,000 acres, homes were lost, my child hood home was nearly lost. It was and always will be about money for somebody, and that is the case here now. This opinion of mine also dosent reflect upon the crews on the ground doing their best, or the flight crews in the air. its the leadership that we can not see calling the shots from probably another state. This is a first amendment web site Chips. sorry you dont like free speech.
Comment by Greg Farber
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
I recall reading somewhere that the government is spending around $1M/day fighting this fire. Given there are around 1,600 firefighters up here 24X7, a dozen or so assorted aircraft flying almost constantly during daylight hours, and who knows how much fuel to get all of that stuff up here and operating, I don't see how there could possibly be more millions stuffed into anyone's pockets - there's just no margin there. I don't buy Greg's conspiracy theory. That's not to say that the forest service could be more effienct at resource utilization, but inefficiency is different from Greg's implied corruption. I also agree that at DC-10 wouldn't be all that useful up here. Aside from the terrain challenges, it would have to travel far to refill, negating the 4X capacity it has over the sky cranes which can refill close to the fire. --Michael Wise, Ketchum
Comment by svmike
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Greg, Where in Chips replies does he imply that he doesn't like free speech? I'd have to say that was a shot below the belt. I surmise that Chips likes free speech just fine and accuracy even more. I for one have really enjoyed reading the information given as well as the differing opinions in the replies on this particular blog. What I find rather annoying is someone ranting without much substantive evidence. Your replies, Greg, are much more about ranting than about giving substantive, accurate information. Coming to the conclusion, "I think personally the fires get milked for all they are worth," based upon one anectodal account certainly doesn't even begin to sway me to the same opinion.
Comment by Ellen Mandeville
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dave, thanks for responding and fair enough. Your comment "I’ve never met or heard of Charlie until he started blogging recently" is troublesome though. Most bloggers (as opposed to commenters) at media companies earn posting priviliges over time. My personal belief is that allowing Charlie to comment is one thing and quite appropriate. Allowing him to post is quite a different thing and not appropriate given that SVO has know idea how credible he is. In old school journalism, we'd ask Charlie to verify sources. I understand that the internet has eroded some of those old school ideas, but there are lots of folks who will find this page as one of the primary features on your home page and give it de facto credence as such. Bummer. Having said all that, I appreciate the work that you and Gary are doing. Keep it up. Greg, never question my dedication to free speech again. I support it entirely and spend a good deal of my time defending that right. The anti-free speech allegation is a cheap shot that's often used by intellectually inferior participants in otherwise stimulating debates. While you're ruminating on exactly what that means, please show me the money trail on this fire. And while you're at it, show me the money trail on the JFK assassination, Katrina, Ruby Ridge, and whatever else you're smoking in that pipe of yours. Chips
Comment by Chips O'Toole
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Slides of the Fire from 8/17 to 8/29. They are high resoulution and free for personal use. http://picasaweb.google.com/csvp07/CastleRockFire817To829 Best to all, Charlie
Comment by Charlie Webster
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
No question...too little - too late. A huge local economy is being compromised by the lack of immediate action. It's truly a shame. I sympathize with all of the local merchants whose financial suffering will take a long time to heal. It's tough enough to make it in this town even in good times. To whoever dropped the ball on this mess ..... THANKS ALOT.
Comment by JoeB
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Chips, " control posting privledges more tightly" and you like free speech, ok what ever you say. I can show you the money trail on JFK, do you got time to read 8400 pages of documents I have here. Jerry Spence proved the fault at Ruby ridge, go read the court records for your self. Ive made one statement concerning Katrina, never researched Katrina. Dont ever accuse me of smoking any substance in any pipe of any kind ever, Im at 439 Glendale, bring a lunch and flash liight your gonna need it.
Comment by Greg Farber
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
For safety purposes, I hope that those in charge of the top commands are screening each other properly to ensure they are getting enough rest to make these vital decisions, with their sharpest judgments. (Remember the snow removal worker a few winters back that worked all night, and then after dumping his load forgot to lower his truck, knocking out cable for half the valley) Moreover, I hope that the local chambers of commerce, various businesses and others will soon meet together to start planning a special parade to honor the firefighters, once they have finished saving our town. Surely, they will all want to get home whenever that happens, but the least we could do, is reward them with a grand send-off. Although we will miss the Ore Wagon festivities this autumn, a celebration honoring the multitude of heroic lifesavers, now here in our presence, could be looked at as even more meaningful than the parade we will miss.
Comment by JBanholzer
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
Hey now, as a home owner and former resident of the wood river valley I have been very interested in what has been happening. I am concerned about friends and their families living in and around Ketchum, I am sympathetic to all the businesses that have suffered and deeply saddened to see some of my favorite places up in smoke. But if there is one thing I am confident of, the people of Ketchum will bond together and get through this. The time to question firefighting techniques and resources has come and gone as it relates to this fire. Sure, things could and probably should have been done differently to prevent a fire of this nature, but they weren't and now mother nature is running it's course. Everyone is obviously very upset and bummed about all this, but continue to focus on the great resources that are currently deployed and remain polite to your neighbors. Same team here! Let it snow, quick. Sean
Comment by Sean
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
I and my family have been visiting Sun Valley since 1975 (I am still trying to figure out how to live there permanently) and have been watching, reading and observing the fire. What has really struck me is that the people of the Valley are behaving in such a way that is a throwback to what America used to be en masse. You represent the small neighborhoods we all grew up in where people helped people no matter the situation, no matter the need. Where generosity was the norm, where no one thought twice about greeting their neighbors, giving a smile and a nod and a "have a nice day". Let's face it; we are all very concerned about the firefighters who are puttting their lives on the line, we are all very concerned about the possibility of fire reaching homes and affecting peoples lives, we are all devastated Baldy is affected and threatened still with this terrible fire, we are all concerned about the local merchants, their ability to hang-on and the effect on the local economy. But continue to do what you can do today for someone else. The cumulative effect of everyone's generosity is what will keep this town thriving. We all love the Valley and our Mountain, but People are what matter. Generosity will keep you, and that is what you are all doing.
Comment by Linda
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Asking the tough questions, debating and weighing the facts are a vital part of a healthy community. Conflict, confrontation and assertiveness are uncomfortable and real aspects of the current human condition. Unfortunately, when conflict happens and assertiveness is needed, people often degenerate to blaming, finger-pointing and name-calling as has happened in this blog and the replies. I am all for healthy debate as it provides an opportunity to review facts, air opinions, listen to differing viewpoints, discuss options and decide on a course of action. Name-calling and snide remarks damages the credibility of the speaker/blogger, sidelines this process and causes calls for "no more discussion and debate" from people seeing the mudslinging. Greg and Chips, how about debating the facts and leaving the name-calling and snide remarks out?
Comment by Ellen Mandeville
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Thoughts anyone as to whether we should come to the Valley this weekend as we had planned or should we stay home? (We're flying in from Washington)
Comment by Linda
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Great pictures of the smoke. Imagine what it is like to be on the ground with something like that racing toward you. Try to feel the heat of a wall of fire that is still a quarter of a mile away. Second guessing the response and adding to the rumor mill is counter-productive. I toured Warm springs last night , and it has been a herculean effort by all those involved. There is some fifty miles of hose connecting the Board Ranch out past frenchmans bend, wrapped around every house, with more engine companies than I could count. The fire fighting personel out there need our support, and appreciate it when they see signs of thanks, or a freindly wave in passing. Let them do their jobs, we are not in the loop of information, and are not aware of all of the factors ivolved in the decision making process. Keep in mind that this is not the only fire in Idaho, over a million acres are burning, we are fortunate to have the incredible response that we have at this time.
Comment by Jay Bailet
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
If you like breathing smoke from a campfire your gonna love it up here! If you do come, maybe think about heading north over Galena... I would like to mention how impressive it was to watch the fighters put out the spot fire that flared near Rock Garden on Tuesday. The fire popped up out of nowhere and within minutes helicopters were dropping water on this fire and it was extinguished! BRAVO Obviously the resources were standing by to extinguish spot fires such as the one I am referring to, but that leads me to believe that a .5 acre fire could have been extinguished with a few helicopters and a tanker or two... I am not blaming anyone, just thinking out loud... Does anyone have any idea of the benefits our forests will receive from this fire in the coming years? Or, are there NO benefits at all?
Comment by machalooney
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Chips says: "What the real experts know is that you can’t put a fire out from the air so calling in all the tankers in the world, including the “Supertanker” (ooooohh!!!), would not have stopped this fire." Your lack an understanding of the potential of the supertankers. Tanker 910 (pardon me for the keyboard slip before), has the ability to be an efficient initial attack weapon in support of ground efforts as is the 747 supertanker the Feds killed earlier this year. As I mentioned the California Dept. of California wisely contracted for the DC-10 while the Feds passed. Cooperation between the two agencies regarding use of the tanker is in writing although it's doubtful the Feds could get it out of the state of California. Both Governors could work out a deal in any case. The larger point is why the feds don't want the supertankers. Fire is a huge industry and the fire service is known for living for the "big one". This has nothing to do with their abilities or heroic efforts by individuals. It has to do with budgets and if you fought fire you know very well the culture. When you are driving to a fire you are hoping for a campaign, it pays the bills. Now that I am away from the industry I am able to see the other side of the equation. Forests burn and people suffer even if their property is safe. Like the Zaca Fire near Santa Barbara review teams will be commissioned and questions will/should be asked if this could have been pinched off sooner. Whatever they conclude the initial attack firefighters on the ground will not be blamed. Look a couple of ranks higher for... read more
Comment by Mike
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
In an attempt to differentiate his presentation of news from his presentation of citizen opinion, Dave Chase states that: "While most generally understand that blogs are opinion-oriented (and that individual bloggers earn, but aren’t automatically granted, credibility), we have done a few different things to delineate blogs from traditional journalism." But still, Dave, on the home page of this site, front and center, you introduce Charlie Webster's work as "photo journalism". So is it a blog, or is it journalism? SunValleyonline suffered a similar confusion of categories in a recent advertisement concerning a "fire sale". Your damage control of this minor incident was swift and effective, but in fact, the context of your online format often blurs the line between journalism and advertising, just as you have blurred the line between journalism and blogging in the case of Charlie Webster's fine photographs. The real point of interest here is that even given the unprofessional errors inherent in your online publication, Charlie Webster's photography is still such an outstanding chronicle of the Castle Rock fire. The quality of his work exceeds anything printed in the local or regional papers, and his perspective on the development of the fire is worth considering. I do not agree with Mr. Webster's analysis of the event. At both the national and the local level, fire response resources have both a material limit and a fiscal limit. How many fires take place throughout the West, every week, of initial proportion similar to ours? Should we allocate the heavy artillery to... read more
Comment by bruce vannoy
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Truly amazing truly amazing!!! Having worked on one of the biggest Fires in Central Idaho The Chicken Complex and Blackburn in the 90's I will tell you this. The Forest Service contracts with private parties to supply material, equipment (oh were did those Dozers come from). The forest service will buy from lumber yards, employees will eat at local eateries, and again the private sector being contracted with are no different than that. they respend their well earned money back into the econmy. Oh so you say the tourists aren't coming shoot you all have a Damn Army up there working their butts off spending their money up there. Quite being so Damn gready and quite your whinning. You are not paying for the expense the entire State is paying to protect your over inflated priced property. My Grandfather would be rolling in his grave knowing the land he bought from UP (Union Pacific for you not so old residents) at a Dollar an acre. I read a few minutes ago a warning sent out regarding what I elluded to in my previous post the threat of erosion and flash flooding. I do find it funny that a "suppossed" non expert would post such a statement a day earlier only to have the "experts" 5hrs ago say the same thing. I am also amazed to here there are tours of the compound that has been set up. Shoot the last thing we wanted outside of Warren on the Chicken Complex was a bunch of lookie loo's gaucking at us. We were there to do a job, save structures save Idaho History and Be Safe.
Comment by Lazy T Shamrock Ranch
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Bruce - I appreciate the suggestion regarding using the term "photojournalism" in a more discriminating manner. Perhaps I have coined a new term and have updated the teaser text to "photo blogging" which may be a better description (I didn't think of that term until now). We did lead that headline with "BLOG: ..." purposely putting 'blog' in all CAPS as to eliminate confusion but perhaps that wasn't enough. As a general rule, we don't link to blogs off of our homepage but Charlie's photography was extraordinary so I thought it warranted shining a light on it. Let me share my perspective at a broader level. Our goal isn't to mimic current media outlets. There's enough copycatting that has already taken place in this valley in media circles. Rather, our goal is to reflect the diversity of voices in our community. We have brilliant people in our community who are world/national/regional experts in their field. Of course, we also have "babblers". On the blogs themselves, I've seen both -- brilliance & babbling...no different than chats taking place at parties, coffee houses, etc. around town as we speak. I believe you should judge the individuals on their own merits vs. those of the medium as a whole. I don't judge TV solely on Jerry Springer, Radio solely on Howard Stern nor newspapers solely on the National Enquirer. For better and worse, the blogs mirror our community. I read every word of some people and ignore others who I've judged to be as you say "babblers" just as I do when selecting tv/radio stations. I'm not sure what you mean by references to "articles" written by... read more
Comment by Dave Chase
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Thanks Charlie! How do you get to such wonderful vantage points to take such brilliant pictures? Does everyone assume that a 'journalist' is 'credible'? hahaha Charlie is a 'photo journalist', his photos are not fake, his words are his own views.... It must be a bit difficult for Dave to differentiate Charlie as a 'journalist' and a 'blogger', Charlie is both! Charlie's post is a photo journal, his views are a blog, and as Dave has stated, Charlie is a photo journalist within a blog! We will continue to document the Castle Rock Fire and post pictures of the Castle Rock Fire on sunvalleyonline.com's blog and allow everyone to express their opinions which is always entertaining to read! Hence the purpose of a blog... If you can not differentiate Charlie's personal accounts and views with that of a 'credible journalist', best of luck navigating your way through the mountains and canyons of life! hehehehe "I do not agree with Mr. Webster’s analysis of the event. At both the national and the local level, fire response resources have both a material limit and a fiscal limit. How many fires take place throughout the West, every week, of initial proportion similar to ours? Should we allocate the heavy artillery to each and every one of these fires?" Yes, we should allocate heavy artillery to each and every one of these fires, we do it every day on the other side of the globe! Nobody will ever know how much it costs to have a squad of F15's flying patterns all day/night in and around Iraq & Afghanistan waiting for ground troops to call for help because they are being... read more
Comment by machalooney
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dave- You did lead the headline with "BLOG," which certainly would have been enough, had you not also lead with the term "journalism". The confused conjunction of the two terms together was the exact problem, which you have corrected. Thanks for the clarification. With regard to your second point, I was purposely vague in reference to articles written by advertisers, and I apologize. My intent was to avoid fingerpointing. What I meant is that it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the voice of this publication and the voice of your advertisers, and what I was referring to was the unfortunate "fire sale" advertisement that appeared here. One of your advertisers showed an unfortunate lapse of judgment in the publication of this ad; you asked that your readers to assign responsibility to you and not to that advertiser. But many of the articles published at SunValleyonline are written by those same advertisers themselves, or by their employees; as such, the voice of this publication is often difficult to sort out from the voice of marketing. The confusion over responsibility for a poorly conceived advertising campaign may be an inevitable outcome of this relationship. And again, my overall point was that the blurring of these lines- journalism and blogging, journalism and advertising- creates a set of limitations that you may or may not wish to proliferate. Thanks.
Comment by bruce vannoy
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dave, You have consistently kept this site on track by looking for the best in your bloggers comments and responding to that thoughtfully. You are the embodiment of the Golden Rule in Cyberspace--treat everyone the way you'd like to be treated. Blogging is the Wild West of the internet, a place that teeters all the time on lawlessness and anarchy, where the craziness can outweigh the good. However, because of your constant efforts, the SV Online blog has (mostly) been a place where honest dialogue is welcomed, but in an atmosphere of sincere respect. You're setting the example for our community in this regard. I'll end the way you always do, with gratitude for your comments and contribution--Thanks, Dave!
Comment by Elizabeth Schwerdtle
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Wow, machalooney- The fire problem in the West is a consequence of our foreign policy decisions in Iraq? Nice thesis. And because I do differentiate between Mr. Webster's personal accounts of the fire and more formal attempts at journalism, you then take a witless, derogatory jab, and dismiss my comments as characteristic of someone who needs luck in "navigating the mountains and canyons of life" ? I do need luck, by the way; life can be baffling! But I don't need luck for the reasons that you attempt (incompetently) to infer. Your inability to reason is reason enough to dismiss your attempted insult as meaningless tripe, and your inability to write with intelligence should be reason enough to prevent you from writing, even here. The only pity is that only two of the above three assertions are correct.
Comment by bruce vannoy
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Pincha-Tulley for President!!!!! Joe Reyes can take Cheney's place. Just watched briefing. After the unrealistic initial attack under regional direction, this national Type 1 team really seems to have a handle on the beast. Asked what would happen if we had another lightning strike in the area like the one that started this fire, Pincha-Tulley replied: "We are not going to let it go anywhere. We are going to nail it." What a battle! I will hug the next hot-shot I see. Fingers-crossed. Best to all. Thank you to all firefighters, volunteers, and anybody who has helped the cause. Thank You to Gary Stivers and David Chase. Sun Valley is still here. And thanks to all who have made comments. I will put my reporting up against Judith Miller anytime, hehe. I hope to never see another crown fire plume again. I will have a new Blog up soon I think you will like.
Comment by Charlie Webster
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
At the moment, the dragon seems to be sleeping... shhhhh!, be very quiet, let's not wake him... Hopefully the fighters get some good rest, Friday could be excitiing!
Comment by machalooney
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dear readers, I apologize for bringing Foreign Policy into a blog regarding the task at hand, in hindsight it was selfish and inappropriate. Those who are fighting the fire at all levels of command have done a tremendous job, I have and will continue to give my gratitude to all fighters.
Comment by machalooney
August 30, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dear Bruce, Slap yourself! Your half-baked attempt to hurt my feelings makes me want to send you a great book: "Becoming a Wordsmith for Dummies"!! LOL!! Pincha-Tulley brings up a good point... "Ten years ago, 46,000 acres was a big fire. But with the amount of fuels in the forest now, this isn't a small fire, but it's not a huge fire either. The wind is something else. Winds basically took this thing completely full circle". The earth's temperature has only risen over the past 20 years and is predicted to keep rising. Furthermore, the west has been in a drought for 10 years and will most likely continue this dry course... If forest fires are predicted to keep growing in magnitude due to the many factors listed above, I feel it would be prudent to look at our resources to fight fires and allocate accordingly the necessary tools to battle these forces of nature. Lastly, I hate to talk about it but it is a reality... If a terrorist had the bright idea to set our forests on fire, I don't think it would be as difficult as flying two airliners into buildings. As much as we are spending to fend off terrorists, let's look at all angles, perhaps our decision makers will say: you know what, I think eight aircraft carriers is enough for now, instead of spending 55 billion dollars to build one more aircraft carrier, let's spend some money within our borders to improve education systems, fight ravenous forest fires that are growing in magnitude every year, etc, etc... I love America, I would hate to see someone intentionally set all of the west on fire at the same time...
Comment by machalooney
August 31, 2007
( 0 votes )
A friend of mine told me about how terrible and ungrateful this blog has been and I just had to see for myself and make some comments. I feel we are exceptionally lucky to have the firefighting resources fighting the Castle Rock fire. We really shouldn't. Period. We do not rate as one of the largest fires or (I doubt) one of the fires that will do the most damage economically overall (logging, hunting, range land, and all). We merely have some highly connected people who live here, and that is it. There are other threatened communities besides ours. Why does this community feel more entitled to protection? It is so easy to cast blame. What about the solution? It is difficult to accept that the forest service needs to allow fires to burn for a while to see what will happen. They aren't physic and neither are you (but you are judgemental, in ignorance). Some fires go out on their own and others do not. When they don't, then the forest service keeps an eye on them. A decision to act is based on all sorts of factors. They need to allow the forest to burn in order to fix the decades of 'no burn' policy and get rid of the undergrowth. The weakened trees we have from disease and beetle kill is due to logging and drought and global warming. Not easy, quick fixes. As far as the dollars spent fighting it...you can't have it both ways, either they fight fire and it costs a ton of money or they let the forest burn and rejuvinate itself and it costs a ton of money. Even in a light fire year, the forest service does not have the capability to put out every single... read more
Comment by Kimberly N. Rogers
August 31, 2007
( 0 votes )
It was a beautiful day today in Sun Valley with large clouds rolling across the sky, cool temps and a tangible sense of relief. The very best to the 16,000 firefighters who manage the unprecedented number of fires in Idaho and Montana. Thank you for the input Kimberly. As I learn more I realize that even the super hot crown fires may be OK in the long run if erosion can be managed. It's been a dramatic event so forgive the drama from me. I have rewritten the blog. Let me know if it's still offensive. Best, Charlie
Comment by Charlie Webster
August 31, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dear Kim, Many thanks for your post, it was a beautiful relief... As a resident and homeowner here in Fairfield ID for six months, spending the past 5 years living, and currently employed in Ketchum. These past years here in southern Idaho exploring Ketchum's backyard and beyond (AKA The Sanctuary! hehe) have opened my eyes to the most diverse topography, ecology, geology, wild animals, birds, weather, etc... that I have ever experienced in my short 28 years of life. I know that similar terrain exists throughout the northwest being a native of Seattle and a graduate of WSU. I have seen three different fires in the past month, two in Fairfield, & The Castle Rock Fire. All have been tremendously tended with minimal loss, I am impressed. From the hearsay, it seems we may just have taken care of what was needed, a cleaning of house in our backyard. Orchestrated with a little help from mother nature and one hell of an effort! Kim, you must agree that the threatened land is not only a land for skiing... it is a land for hunting, fishing, grazing, partying, escaping, business, 20,000 homes? (a wild guess, all with insurance, I wonder if the insurance companies paid any money to help?), biking, hiking, you get the point. Please inform us of other similar situations such as ours occurring or have this summer around the northwest, I would like to discover what has occurred in these places such as McCall which is the only town that comes to mind in similar size, topography, population, business that I am aware of. Lighting strikes the earth as many as 7 digit numbers every... read more
Comment by machalooney
August 31, 2007
( 0 votes )
Kim - Thank you for attempting to shift the conversations in this blog to what is important - not foreign policy, terrorism (really machalooney?), name calling or blaming - but our Castle Rock fire and the tremendous job everyone has been doing. Everyone is entitled to their views, but casting judgment on how this fire has been handled should be saved for those who actually are handling it and fighting it every day. They are the only ones who truly know. machalooney - Have you heard of the Zaca fire in Santa Barbara County that has been burning since July 4th and torched 240,207 acres in the Los Padres National Forest? Do you think they don't have hiking, biking, fishing, hunting, boating, wildlife and tourism threatened? As of now it is not threatening any affluent neighborhoods, but it certainly could at any time. As pointed out, there are hundreds of fires burning all over the west. Although ours is obviously the most important to us, all fires are important and someone has the tough job of deciding how to allocate the fire resources. We are deemed the number one fire priority in the country. What else could we ask for? Like svmike, I lived in Santa Barbara during the Painted Cave fire. This fire was so fast and furious that it burned hundreds of homes in a matter of hours and killed at least one person. Air tankers were called, but for most homes it was too late. My home was spared, but many of my friends were not so lucky. It was truly unbelievable to watch the fire barreling down the hillsides, jump a six lane freeway and head for the coastline. Seeing... read more
Comment by Double evacuee
September 01, 2007
( 0 votes )
Double evacuee, name calling, I am not serious, I guess I have a twisted sense of humor to some people... I agree with you on all counts, that is why I am so worried about the current situation in the west and coming years. My girlfriend grew up in Santa Barbara and has given some pretty amazing details... Don't you think that we need to learn more about our infrastructure? Or have we reached the peak of our learning curve about fires and there is no more to learn or do to prevent them? I assure you Double evacuee, I have been in full support this entire time. You are right, this is not the appropriate vehicle to send my particular message. I care very much about the entire west and from this incident I am already in the process of finding ways to help our situation. My thoughts have been running rapid over forest fires ever since this fire erupted up Rooks Creek, Red Warrior, Lodgepole, Mahoney, Heaven... they are good friends of mine and many other people! All the best, machalooney
Comment by machalooney
September 01, 2007
( 0 votes )
Dear machalooney, If you re-read my comments in my first entry, you might notice that there were only two points where I was responding directly to you. I never accused you personally of "name calling". I don't doubt your support but I do think you and some others have taken this blog too far and at times in an inappropriate direction. Of course everyone could use to learn more about a lot of things but this blog is not the place where it's going to happen. If you are indeed attempting to learn more and find ways to help, then I applaud you. It's certainly a shame that our favorite trails and back country areas had to burn, but with 0 lives and 0 structures lost, I'd say we're extremely lucky. Thank you fire crews!
Comment by Double evacuee
September 01, 2007
( 0 votes )
OK gang, lets all take a deep breath. Today was pretty close to a Sun Valley 'Blue Bird' day, that we are all use to. Eveything will work out. We will ski again on our beautiful mountain in a few short months. Our community has pulled together and the firefighters have done a great job!
Comment by jim bronson
September 01, 2007
( 0 votes )
Kimberly N. Rogers has it all correct! I was appalled no actually I was not surprised to read the Headline "cash donations to firefighters". Unfortunately, as Fun Valley has seen the introduction of the "new resident" he or she who has the dead presidents can simply pay off or pay someone as they wish for their preconceived Utopia. Fun Valley should erect a fence around it and at each entrance a Booth be set up to sell admission. A sign over said entrance would read "The Fun Valley Zoo a wonderful example of self centered righteousness were the all mighty Dollar will buy you happiness or at least status!" Hours of operation- 10am - 5pm so as not to disturb the animals Do not feed the animals as their diet of tofu, and latte's may be upset
Comment by Lazy T Shamrock Ranch
September 02, 2007
( 0 votes )
I think you somewhat mistook my comments. I was merely appalled at the ungrateful and ignorant attitude of those bloggers who complained about how the beginning of the Castle Rock Fire was handled. Like they know anything about fire or its management. I must admit that I am entirely grateful that we received the help that we did. I know it is an incredible selfish thing to feel. However, I recognise it as such and wanted others to realize how over-the-top our protection was and appreciate it. I do wish the public could give funds directly to the firefighters themselves. The forest sevice and BLM do not pay well...and it has gotten worse in the past 20 years. I do not think that $ 20.00 plus and hour for 16-24 hour days 14 days straight before a day off pays these women and men nearly enough to have them risk their lives. About 18 wildland firefighters die a year, death and injury benefits are miniscule. I imagine their families are just beside themselves for how little their son or daughters life is worth to the US Government. Thank Goodness that Sun Valley Company did such and amazing job in assisting the firefighting effort and saving Bald Mountain, Lodges, Lifts, and Snowmaking. Without Baldy, we would not have much of an economy in the valley or an advantage over the fire. I am grateful for our community and all it has to offer. The people here have always pulled together in a crisis and have always given generously to those in need. The Castle Rock Fire is just another event that proves that people here are wonderful.
Comment by Kimberly N. Rogers
September 03, 2007
( 0 votes )
Charlie--Thanks for these pictures and the others. There is a lot of information available on this tragic situation, but your work through these blogs is really adding substance to it. I have been forwarding links to your blogs to family members so they can see what is happening. Thanks again, and please be safe!
Comment by Scott Carter
August 29, 2007
( 0 votes )
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